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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:32 am 
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And why one would do that while he is trying to sell the book?


Because then he wouldn't be abiding to the terms of the license and thus copyright infringement.

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Why would it be impossible for us? I believe that we shouldn't have someone who say the final...


I think that relicensing a joint copyright work requires unanimous support of all authors, but I can't find the section that verifies this from U.S. copyright law (I'm fairly certain this is the case though). Termination of a license requires majority. It just doesn't work that way. (We could create a foundation which is assigned copyright and by its bylaws must abide to a completely democratic process, but even democracy is subject to vote manipulation, etc. etc.)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:39 am 
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Ambush Commander wrote:
Because then he wouldn't be abiding to the terms of the license and thus copyright infringement.

I believe that if one is trying to sell something that is free, he is already not abiding to the terms of the license (assuming the license is non commercial).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Everah wrote:
As for a copyright of the material, I think there is a lot more to look into in this arena. Given the scope of countries covered and the number of people involved, it may be difficult, if not impossible, to actually obtain a copyright. We may end up having to resort to releaseing the material only under a license.


Which I think is currently most likely - and hence why a license would ensure those organising and running the show have their actions in distributing and modifying contributions validated and legalised. A license protects US as much as prevents OTHERS misuse.

Vinh wrote:
I'm not sure i understand your point, you say that we need a license to prevent quiting people to remove their content, but as i understand intellectual property, this is not something we should / can protect from.


A license is a granting of permissions. In the absence of a formal permission, a contribution can be removed. However worse, our distribution of the text could later be challenged legally since no formal permission exists. Its why a wiki, or any open project needs a License. Managing copyright attribution in a large project is next to impossible - unless someone here is willing to record every change, seek permission for every modification, and maintain a spreadsheet of all every minor change, contribution, etc... A blanket license simplifies things...

And yes, it prevents removals. If someone is unwilling to accept that then they have no right contributing to an open book. The CC licenses cannot be revoked once granted on any piece of text - same principles as govern open source licenses.

feyd wrote:
Why bar commercial use?


There's a difference from profiting from being a better programmer, than from profiting from a body of text you are selling for money and to which you contributed nothing nor own a copyright for. The latter is a complement to the book, the former profiteering.

Its my opinion of course, so its still open until agreed.

If we want to allow for publishing (something I see as not very likely) yet control commercial uses - then that limits the license choices a lot. Even without a NC clause, I think the risk is very small so I'm open either way. I'm just wary of allowing free commercial uses in a scenario where exercising copyright control may be impossible.

If copyright is very distributed, then I think NC would be beneficial. Were the copyright to be retained by a much smaller limited group, I'd likely be of two minds about allowing commerical use.

Ambush Commander wrote:
I think that relicensing a joint copyright work requires unanimous support of all authors


It definitely does under Irish and EU law as far as I know. A license is a granting of permission from a copyright holder. To change the permissions, all copyright holders would need to assent without exception. This only highlights why this discussion is immensely helpful - we likely could not change a license into the future if copyright attribution is for more than a few people.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:20 pm 
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"Commercial use" was, at the time, understood, for myself, that he was referring to the code, not the text of the book. As far as the code is concerned, I'd want to allow people to use it in any way they wish with little or no restrictions, be they commercial or not.

Now, with the text of the book, I'd prefer that we control all the verbs of it being published. So publication without permission I'm totally in favor of having the terms dictate that.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:09 pm 
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That's exactly what I meant.

feyd wrote:
As far as the code is concerned, I'd want to allow people to use it in any way they wish with little or no restrictions, be they commercial or not.

If you ask me, they can do with the code whatever they want... They can even sell it for $1M... I don't care.
I was talking about selling the book itself, nothing else.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:32 pm 
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Here are some licensing links and information that I found. Maybe reading through some of these links will help everyone get an understanding of what 'rights' are reserved under a license.

The GNU Free Documentation License
information on creating a Creative Commons License
FreeBSD License (From freebsd.org)
FreeBSD Trademark Usage Terms and Conditions (Not a license, but good legal text)
The Apache Software Foundation License 2.0
The Apache Software Foundation License 1.1 (Historical)
The Common Public License 1.0
The LaTeX Project Public License
Common Development and Distribution License

As a last resort, we can always look at developing our own license. There really is nothing stopping us from doing that, either. Again, copyrights are a little different, but as for licensing the text or code samples, we can, and should, read through the more common one or begin considering creating our own.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:21 pm 
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Wow! Ok I'm back. I've scanned over all the posts as this thread has built up over the last week but I'll have to read everything properly before I do anything else 8O :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Hello!

/me been looking for a way to help PHPDN some how and I found it!

I know Everah has offered before, but I am offering the use of my dedicated server to host the domain with. Server specs:

Processor #1 Vendor: AuthenticAMD
Processor #1 Name: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+
Processor #1 speed: 1990.290 MHz
Processor #1 cache size: 512 KB

2x80gb HD (1 for daily backups)
100mbps Uplink speed
1024mb RAM

Hosted by Layertech Tech on the Savvis Network

I'd be MORE than willing to contribute my server to help out!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:18 am 
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I'd just like to say this: regardless of what the decision is, it is vital that we come to a consensus on the copyright/licensing issue. The worst thing we could do is debate something and then not come to a decision. That being said...

These licenses will allow some non-related party to sell our book without our consent (technically with our consent, because of the license): GFDL, CC-!NC, FreeBSD, Apache 2.0, CPL, TeX, CCDL

These licenses prevent that: CC-NC

No commercial use is in the minority. (Granted, quite a few of these are software licenses, though)

The two main variables here are commercial use and copyright reassignment.

If we require copyright reassignment: The leaders control copyright over the project, which means they have complete control in licensing. At any time, they may change the license (possibly to a non-free one) for all future versions of the work (although the original license usually will protect our right to continue distributing the work under that license). While this may seem like a worst-case scenario, it has happened before, and that's the trouble of assigning copyright: you loose control. If you were solely responsible for a chapter in the book, you have no copyright over it, and cannot relicense it alternatively or use it in any other way except under the terms of the original license. It works the other way: if a license is found to be defective, only the leaders need to unanimously decide to change the license to a newer version.

Just a personal note, if copyright reassignment is required for this project, I'm gone. :-(

If we require no commercial use: Under the terms of this particular license, no publisher may sell the book for profit, and the host that the book is hosted on may not have ads unless these entities are of non-profit status (are there that many non-profit publishers out there). This license, however, does not preclude another license which does allow commercial use, usually with publishers in the form of a contract. This would have to be negotiated by the copyright holders.

Put them together, and...

No commercial use and copyright reassignment would only require the group of leaders to handle contract negotiation with a publisher.

No commercial use and no copyright reassignment would essentially stop publishers from publishing our book unless they were non-profit, as there would be no way to coordinate all of the copyright holders in the creation of a contract with the publisher.

Commercial use and no copyright reassignment (what I like) only needs one party to negotiate with the publisher in order to get the book going. Much of the contract would be unnecessary as the rights are already granted, but we'd still need someone to work with the publisher (not a small task).

This is precisely how the Subversion book works, which is published under free (CC-BY, note no NC clause) license and by Oreilly (who I imagine would publish our book under normal circumstances anyway).

Commercial use and no copyright reassignment WORKS. That's why I'm pushing so hard for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:30 am 
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New usergroup and forums coming soon! Keep an eye out, although I'm sure we'll make an announcement when we set it up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:54 pm 
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Ambush Commander wrote:
Commercial use and no copyright reassignment WORKS. That's why I'm pushing so hard for it.

I'll hold comment on the commercial use, but lets talk about copyright assignment.

Lets say the hypothetical book is complete (yay). We, as a group, have contributed, its online, and its great. It has taken us two years, several members are no longer online, some have even passed away, but the book stands the test of time and everyone agrees it is great.

So great that EvilCompany decides to publish it, without permission.

Who will file suit?

Without *every* contributor, we lack standing with the court to do so. This is why projects like the Zend Framework require contributors to sign over their copyright. Its not just to "control" the submissions. It is absolutely required to protect them.

What happens if the license we use for our book (lets say the CCL for example) ends up being invalidated in court? Without the permission of every contributor, we cannot relicense, and could end up with a book that has NO valid license - so NO ONE can post it - including devnet.

No copyright assignment does not "work". Its exactly the opposite - it fails to work in critical situations that are serious concerns.

Worse, no contributions should be made until the two key decisions - copyright ownership, and license - are determined.

Multiple people have already mentioned that they may not be involved based on the decisions in those two areas. I think it is critical to address those issues first.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:17 pm 
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I know this goes against the grain a little bit, but I am willing to provide material for the project even if it means that Chris 'gets' to put only his name on the project. I know he said that he has no intention of hording the credit for this project, but the befenit presented in completing this project is compelling enough for me to provide whatever content I can, even to the extent that I am not credited with the provision of content and material. I know it sounds stupid and, realistically, I am not feeling the desire to debate my feelings on the matter. I also perfectly understand everyone else's reluctance to furnish content without appropriate licensing and copyright protection structures in place. I would, however, like to still provide content for use in the project so we can see it move forward, even if it is just a little bit.

Worse case scenario (there's that term again :roll: ): We, as a community, publish our 'book' as a series of entries in a Wiki under a Wiki type license. No publishing, no actual book. Just solid, usable material on a web site that might actually help people. Very similar ins style to a forum, but without the threading and comments.

If you take issue with my position on this issue, please PM me. I would hate to see this thread get cluttered with people not agreeing with my stance on providing content for this project.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:26 pm 
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I would figure that all contributors would be listed in a "credits" section. I'm not sure wiki style would work though as I remember way back it was mentioned that it should be in html, pdf and 1 other format I believe.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:49 pm 
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Robert, I would like to see more people working on this project with such attitude.

According to my estimations it's at least 3 months till we would get any solid body of text. Until then the project is considerably immune to any 'content withdraw' because any such withdraw would be 'no big deal'.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:02 pm 
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I'm not sure wiki style would work though as I remember way back it was mentioned that it should be in html, pdf and 1 other format I believe.

Currently it's even less important than licensing issues. Once the text would be there we could care about different formats. As of now wiki is perfect choice, it allows concurrent editing and it's easy to work with.


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